Turbo VE? Possible been done?

[phatg20]

Ok, since i keep having these crazy ideas to make my G a 10sec car with out weight reduction and without nitrous, I know it will cost me 10k... BUT I am thinking to buy a VE, and turbo that...

I know the variable valve timing makes it dificult to tune, with a turbo... But, any advice? Also has any one done this?

[fatboyz921]

Yes anything can be done with enough money. In japan the there is such thing as a VET that comes in the x trail suv. But good luck getting your hands on one of those, its hard enough to get a ve. You'll want to check out the sr20defourms in the ve section for more specific stuff. I'm sure andreas miko can turbo and tune the car for you with the right amount of money.

[Corrosion]

as of right now i think there is only one turbo VE in the us, but i could be wrong.
it is in nx2000
here is the adress for his sight http://www.gonzonx.com/nxindex/nxindex.html
a stock ve-t would be very cool, but as said very hard to get your hands on.

you would probly be best just building a bb block to hold nast boost, get the par gear set, and a BIG honking turbo :) add a lot of fuel and some slicks . that would be easier over all.

but a ve-t is something to strive for, its a great goal.

i wish you much luck because that would be cool as hell :)
-Dan

[platypus_g20t]

i think the big thing about turboing the ve is that you would have to do something about the cams. u don't want that kind of overlap when u got turbo. it'll be easier to do a crazy crazy turbo setup but then if a custom ve-t suits your boat....knock urself out..heheh

[PhatSaturn]

I have a couple questions... Do the ECU's control the VVT on the VE's or is there a seperate valve timing system for them? Also, can the TEC III control a VVT system? Thanks

Joel

[JustinP10]

It's VVL, not VVT, and VTC is completely different from VVL.

To sum everything up...

It's not worth it to turbo a VE. If you want boost then get a DET, if you want N/A power get a VE. You can boost a DET and make more power for less money. A VET is only good for bragging rights.

[JRudd]

Originally posted by PhatSaturn
I have a couple questions... Do the ECU's control the VVT on the VE's or is there a seperate valve timing system for them? Also, can the TEC III control a VVT system? Thanks

Joel

There are soleniods seperate from the ecu that control the cam switch. When you do the swap you use the stock ecu.
And my two cents... don't bother turboing a VE as you won't get an appreciable gain over a DET and you will definitely get an appreciable headache. You can get all the power you will ever need out of a DET.

Jordan

[JustinP10]

Originally posted by JRudd


There are soleniods seperate from the ecu that control the cam switch. When you do the swap you use the stock ecu.



Actually the solenoids just switch the cams, you need to make something that will activate those solenoids. And the stock DE ECU will work, but it doesn't do all the well for daily driving. You'd want to have JWT reprogram you factory ECU.

[PhatSaturn]

Well I have a few more questions... For one, how is VVL different than VTEC? VVL is variable valve lift correct? meaning the valves open at a different lift due to the cam using a second lobe. Will somoene explain how the VVL is different? Also, VTEC stands for Variable Timing Electronic Control correct? Does the nissan have control on the intake AND exhaust? Thanks

Joel

[JustinP10]

VVL is more like i-vtec, minus the VTC that i-vtec has. it switches to a big lobe on the intake cam first, then switches the exhaust cam a few hundred rpms later, to help give more midrange power.

[PhatSaturn]

Well I'm going to talk him into just going with the SR20DE that he has right now for the turbo... His point of view has been "well the VE has 190HP stock so why not go with it instead. I tried to explain to him that around 10-15HP of that is from the increased compression which is going to limit him more on boost. I originally thought that the VE had VTC which would have been worth it but it don't. Thanks

Joel

[phatg20]

Well.... I still want to go with the VE, because a turbo ve, would be awsome.... You say to just boost the DET, but i need 600+ whp (to make my goal), to move my g, to the 10sec mark, without weight reduction and without nitrous.

Every little bit of hp gain is important. Plus, the DET is setup for turbo's... I want to be unique...

Ok, thats my .02 i think this is NY talkin.... HMMMMMMMM, i am home tomarrow!!! =)

[MrFancypants]

but i need 600+ whp (to make my goal)

I hope you have at least $10-15K lying around, because thats the starting point for this kind of power. No VE has ever run that kind of boost either, so your odds of blowing it to bits are good.


- Greg -

[Corrosion]

i'm sorry dude, but your going a little overboard,
i know everyone here on this board wants to get that much HP out of there cars, cuz that would just be cool!
and 10sec passes would be a great thing!

but in order to obtaion dreams like that you would need something like this
http://www.sr20forum.com/showthread.php?t=59478

the idea of 600hp and full interior is great! just not very reachable unless you have a bottomless supply of money.
and fwd is really going to put a damper on what you can do.

also you wouldn't have a streetable car anymore! talk to people with 400whp, most will tell you the car isn't streetable any more. once you hit about 4500rpm all hell brakes loose and you no longer are in controll of your car! have you ever taken a ride in a sr20 with more then 350whp??? if not i would try to do that asap before you start pouring you hard earned cash into something as crazy as your looking for.

you also have to look deeper into this, to run a 10sec pass at a track your going to have to have a FULL cage, which will kill your idea of a full interior because the back seat will be mostly useless.

i'm not trying to put you down at all dude, i too would love to have the kind of auto that is running around in your head. you just have to look at this in a practial sence, do you want to render your car utterly useless other then at the track? i dunno if that would be worth it.

but hey make me eat my words if you so choose, i wish you the best of luck!

-Dan

[JRudd]

Ahhh... The voice of reason.

Jordan

[Fraychild]

Originally posted by Corrosion
i'm sorry dude, but your going a little overboard,
i know everyone here on this board wants to get that much HP out of there cars, cuz that would just be cool!
and 10sec passes would be a great thing!

but in order to obtaion dreams like that you would need something like this
http://www.sr20forum.com/showthread.php?t=59478

the idea of 600hp and full interior is great! just not very reachable unless you have a bottomless supply of money.
and fwd is really going to put a damper on what you can do.

also you wouldn't have a streetable car anymore! talk to people with 400whp, most will tell you the car isn't streetable any more. once you hit about 4500rpm all hell brakes loose and you no longer are in controll of your car! have you ever taken a ride in a sr20 with more then 350whp??? if not i would try to do that asap before you start pouring you hard earned cash into something as crazy as your looking for.

you also have to look deeper into this, to run a 10sec pass at a track your going to have to have a FULL cage, which will kill your idea of a full interior because the back seat will be mostly useless.

i'm not trying to put you down at all dude, i too would love to have the kind of auto that is running around in your head. you just have to look at this in a practial sence, do you want to render your car utterly useless other then at the track? i dunno if that would be worth it.

but hey make me eat my words if you so choose, i wish you the best of luck!

-Dan

Ha ha ha! bottomless supply of money :lol: Ha ha ha!

The guys are right man... 600HP? ... That's out of this world for a streetable car...

[PhatSaturn]

You guys don't know PhatG20... He is insane but serious... HAHAHA! Doesn't make sense does it? Its true though he is determined to get there. The VE just isn't going to work though unless he's willing to rebuild the internals to a lower compression setup. He's going to have it setup for different settings. MUCH lower boost for street. Dunno I'll be seeing him tomorrow to see where he's at. Later

Joel

[JustinP10]

He better also factor in custom cam grinds too. So there goes his 10-15k budget.... There aren't any big turbo cams available.

I'll just come out and say it... It'd be dumb to choose a VE + turbo over a DET at those power levels. You'd end up spending a trunk full of money over what it'd cost to boost a DET that much, which is already a few trunk fulls as is....

[PhatSaturn]

Ya I'm gonna talk to him about all this. I have a question though... Will a head from a VE fit on a DE? If so, couldn't one just swap on the VE head with the VE ECU to control the solenoids? Then add on the TECIII for all other controls?

Also, I've read/heard alot that the stock bottom end of a DE has a forged crank, rods, and pistons. Can someone validate this for sure. I believe it was because this engine was originally produced to be turbo'd (DET) and they decided to put out a N/A (DE). So, if they are forged, what is the advantage of putting in say crower or some other brand of forged rods? Also, what is the supposed max of the bottom end? Has anyone succesfully actually broken a rod or snapped a crankshaft? Thanks

Joel

[JustinP10]

Originally posted by PhatSaturn
Ya I'm gonna talk to him about all this. I have a question though... Will a head from a VE fit on a DE? If so, couldn't one just swap on the VE head with the VE ECU to control the solenoids? Then add on the TECIII for all other controls?


No, you'd need to drill out some stuff on the DE block, it's more hassle than it's worth. Plus you can't find just a VE head. The VE ECU doesn't switch the solenoids at the right rpms and you'd have to have the harness and everything for that to work too... again too much trouble.

Originally posted by PhatSaturn

Also, I've read/heard alot that the stock bottom end of a DE has a forged crank, rods, and pistons. Can someone validate this for sure. I believe it was because this engine was originally produced to be turbo'd (DET) and they decided to put out a N/A (DE). So, if they are forged, what is the advantage of putting in say crower or some other brand of forged rods? Also, what is the supposed max of the bottom end? Has anyone succesfully actually broken a rod or snapped a crankshaft? Thanks

Joel

Nope, they are normal parts, just stronger than most. I have seen stuff break from too much power, but it's usually just the transmission. There's a RWD stock block SR20 (in a 240) here in the US putting down 544rwhp, i've seen ~500whp on a fwd block too. But that requires quite a bit of tuning knowledge to get that far, most people would monkey something up by that point and pop something you have VERY little room for error at that point.

[Cyclemut]

But then you also have to deal with the timing situation and how to retard the timing to prevent detonation. Rewiring the whole thing to either accept the VE ecu alongside the stock ecu (plan on running different gauges or the stockers?) could put an electronics engineer wacky. Even the dealerships aren't going to have but the very basic materials, especially the parts' knowledge, to help in any way. You'd probably have to learn to speak Japanese to fluintly discuss even some of the basic problems that you may, or may not, run into.

I know that being unique has a cooleness factor of a bazillion, but the headaches may be overwhelming. If you need some help though, let me know...

I'm down for any new adventure. I can sure help with the tools and the mechanical knowledge, if you're still game.

[Bluebullet]

James Farrer was pulling some crazy #s out of his sentra..but he was bagging 10.03 at best when i talked to him last online. Having probs with the tranny (se-r 5 speed!!) and i think he was going to switch to a squential. He spent more time breaking the car at that kinda hp than driving it. 600hp is easy to get to..its the parts AFTER the 600hp that u should worry about....

[platypus_g20t]

i totally agree, ur bound to break something at 600hp, esp that tranny

[PhatSaturn]

Ok, so does the DET have a differnet bottom end than the DE (ie stronger?) The transmission isn't going to be a problem as it will be cryo treated. He is talking about having a custom 6 speed built and put in also... Like I said he wants unique. Thanks for replying on the VE head fitment. I am just learnin nissans as of now. Ask me a Saturn question and I can say where every bolt goes. Heads are swappable between the SOHC and DOHC blocks (they are the same blocks) so I didn't know if nissan was so nice to keep it that way also! Thanks

Joel

[AWOL_g]

10 second 4banger?
10 second fwd?

You gotta be rich and/or crazy!
If i was you I would but a mucle car for draggin and keep the G for real racin (w/turns:))

[Corrosion]

ok,
if he's serious about this he has a lot of work layed out before him.

i would be MOST worried about the tranny.

a cryo treated tranny will hold up to around 350whp before things start to get iffy, exp 3rd gear.

if you want 600whp your looking into about 4g's worth of tranny.
you would have to buy the PAR dog gear stack. this means you have NO syncros so you have to make quick shifts at the right rmp or your just going to keep grinding your gears. but it also means you no longer need to use your clutch. going to take some learning to drive your car again, some people don't mind others hate it. its not very streetable.

you also have to do some work on your tranny case. find a good shop to weld it up for ya so it dosen't brake apart, this happens with weel hop, or when you get a good hook with the BIG ass slicks, that your going to need to get trackion.

that should create you a solid tranny, but rember the dog box is good for up to 600, so you would be right on its max... so i would still worrie about killing it.

don't forget another G note for a twin plate clutch, not sure on the hp ratings of the JWT one, but again i think your pushing the limits. also not streetable


then theres the motor...
-getting a ve isn't cheep
-custom bottom end, the only thing left stock would be the block
-custom intake mani, stock on will not flow that much HP
-equal length mani, going to need that extra 500rpm of spool time
-custom ground cams, theres really no way the duration and lift of the vvl cams will do well with that much boost.
-not sure on the head, it flows well but i don't know if it flows well enuff
-standalone ecu
-the turbo to flow this much HP, very pricey if you want something not super laggy
of course theres much much more, in fact there maybe more then 10g's worth of stuff.


so what you would end up with is bassically a fully custom RACE car. you really have to think about that RACE part, race cars break all the time! you really would need to have another tranny and another motor ready to be put in, unless your prepaired to have the car down for a few weeks here and a few weeks there.

as for just turning down the boost to drive it on the street, that just won't get the job done, think about the fuel that car will need. and the clutch and tranny to hold that power , it would be best never to get stuck in traffic!

again i wish this guy the best of luck, i would just hate to see someone try to start a project like this and blow a huge wad of cash, just to find they are no longer able to drive there car other then at the track. i have looked hard into things of this nature, i was in the process of buying turbo stuff for my nx2k, and have many buddies around here that are running around in boosted sr20's. now those parts are going to go on my G, i have no plans on going over 250whp cuz i want a street car.

-Dan
sorry for the length, i'm just long winded =P

[JustinP10]

Originally posted by PhatSaturn
The transmission isn't going to be a problem as it will be cryo treated. He is talking about having a custom 6 speed built and put in also... Like I said he wants unique.

Cryo treating only delays/prevents the problem, doesn't eliminate it. And out of curiousity, who's he going to have build him a custom 6-spd tranny for a FWD SR20?

Sounds like he needs to do quite a bit more research and really figure out what is necessary (and obtainable for that matter).

[TurboG20]

Not to be a naysayer during the festive season, but shouldn't someone be calling bullshit on this whole thread by now? I would but I'm much too polite.

[Corrosion]

well, to be perfecly honist i was trying to,
i was just using facts :)
but hey some people are crazy =P
-Dan

[phatg20]

Why do you think this thead is BS? I am dead serious. I want to have a very unique and fast g20. Yes, true it may only be driveable on the track but, it will be a luxary sedan that is 10sec...

I have decided not to get a VE, as I have talked with my friend Phatsaturn.

I will be going with a DET.

I am just looking for as much info from people as posible, because i want to do this, and yes it will cost 15k, but it is worth it, to see peoples faces when you are flying in a 10sec INFINITI =)

I want to make this a sucessfull project...

[JustinP10]

Originally posted by phatg20
Why do you think this thead is BS? I am dead serious. I want to have a very unique and fast g20. Yes, true it may only be driveable on the track but, it will be a luxary sedan that is 10sec...


Sorry to rain on your parade, but have you ever seen a 10 second FWD car? Luxury is the farthest thing from those cars. They're full out racecars.

Originally posted by phatg20

I have decided not to get a VE, as I have talked with my friend Phatsaturn.

I will be going with a DET.


Well that's a start in the right direction... =)

Originally posted by phatg20
I am just looking for as much info from people as posible, because i want to do this, and yes it will cost 15k, but it is worth it, to see peoples faces when you are flying in a 10sec INFINITI =)

I want to make this a sucessfull project...

$15K, what about the other half of the motor, chassis and suspension setup? And it may look something like an infiniti, but people will be shocked you tore up your G20 more than anything else...


What is the most modded up/powerful FWD car you've drivin in so far?

[TurboG20]

Originally posted by phatg20

I want to make this a sucessfull project...

Best of luck to you.

[Cyclemut]

Originally posted by JustinP10
What is the most modded up/powerful FWD car you've drivin in so far?

The full race Honda CRX built by PAC Motorsports. Low 11's, up here. It ran (I'm taking the owner's word about this, as I wasn't there) a 10.98 in Texas.

But, it's an all out racer. Skinned body, tube chassis, solid front suspension, lexan windshield, etc.

So fast it almost hurt. I didn't get to race it, but a quick trip up and down the street before the cops could show up was a blast!

Anyway, it'd be hard to do with a fully streetable car, that's not AWD.

But, I'd give it 110% hell for tryin'. I'd always wonder why I didn't try.

I give him kudos for wanting more, and not limiting himself to what other's have done.

[PhatSaturn]

Ok, I know alot of you guys are being sceptics about this but PhatG20 is 100% serious about this. He is getting a DET and I am reluctant to post the exact list of parts he will be using because it seems so many are so sceptical.

If those of you that want to support this in giving good ideas and factual based opinions, that would be very helpful. Thanks

Joel