i have a vague question. To anyone who has studied the m3/m5 susp that is so superior let me know how far off do you think our g's are from that perfection what seperates them from us and how do we catch up and pass them..?

They have one huge advantage: RWD!

yeah rwd def a plus but other than that specifically speaking about their spring technology and i beleive the bmw put a great deal of time into the right suspension setup especially on the m3 and m5 i was just wondering what pushes them so far ahead of the comp


casual
i beleive bmw known for their handling since the start

Not to mention that the M-type bimmerz are usually setup with the cream of the crop, top of the line, super-expensive stuff to justify their high price.:confused:

Originally posted by MR. RYTE
Not to mention that the M-type bimmerz are usually setup with the cream of the crop, top of the line, super-expensive stuff to justify their high price.:confused:
see thats the part that i'm confused about that line right there "the cream of the crop, top of the line, super-expensive stuff " what exactly is it all , just wondering what makes them so superior

casual

Originally posted by cas8_1999
just wondering what makes them so superior

Years and years and years of racing heratige. Not just racing but winning too.

hmm *cough* the new corvette Z06 beat the M3 in handling :paranoid:

Originally posted by Dshaft96
They have one huge advantage: RWD!

IMO, RWD is not an advantage. It depends on one's preferences. An RWD hasn't won in BTCC in a long time (actually, I don't know if it ever happened but I stand to be corrected). And in German STC a few years back BMW did win, but it was a very narrow victory from the Pug 406.

My own preference is FWD (point the front wheels approximately in the direction you need to go and let the back end sort itself out - a btcc commentator once said something to that effect after a great recovery from some driver). So basically the point of this all is that in good hands FWD can be as good as RWD.


Cas, sorry, I don't know the answer to your question, but I sure hope someone does.

Geo once said that the M3 chassis is superior to ours. Geo, in which way? Oh and could you compare the suspension of the P10 and your Porsche?

Alex

just for general knowledge courtesy of rsportcars.com

suspension tuning
It’s a fact that not all the sports car owners want their cars to have a ground clearance of 7 or 8 centimeters (a clearance which is enough to hit a cigarette package of King Size). If you want more precise driving and cornering performance, sport springs, stiffer and shorter shocks may be a good start for a healthy suspension tuning. Most people tend to use their old shocks doing this, even their old springs, by cutting them.

For the sake of safety, NEVER cut your springs to get them to the desired ride height, just buy a new one or two pair according to your suspension system, thus you will have brand-new springs which probably will meet your needs. Second: For a satisfying suspension tuning, it will be a good choice having shorter shocks to ensure your new, shorter springs work in harmony, if you can afford it.

Shock Absorber Designs

The main function of a shock absorber is maintaining vertical loads upon your tires to help keep tires in good contact with the road. There are two main shock absorber designs in use today: the two-tube design and the mono-tube design.

Conventional two-tube design shock absorbers must be mounted vertically, while mono-tube designs which are high-pressure shock absorbers can be mounted vertically or horizontally and they will work either way.

How do Shock Absorbers work?

Shock absorbers work on the principle of fluid displacement as you consider them a working piston, having hydraulic fluid in it. The hydraulic fluid in the piston, is forced through tiny holes - which are called ‘Orifices’ - in the piston as the suspension travels through jounce and rebound. However, the orifices let only a small amount of fluid through the piston, which in turn slows down spring and suspension movement. Shock absorbers are velocity sensitive hydraulic damping devices, meaning the faster the suspension moves, the more resistance the shock absorbers provide. Because of this feature, shock absorbers adjust to road conditions. As a result, shock absorbers reduce bounce, roll or sway, brake dive and acceleration squad.

the gtr is the racing one and there is also a very expensive tuned down street version available for a big lump sum.
The BMW M3 GTR features an extremely lowered suspension and enormously sporty suspension settings. The compact V8 high-performance engine permits optimum weight distribution which, together with the 19-inch sports wheels, guarantee outstanding handling properties.

just wanted to add a pic so we see what we talking about http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/11/racdyn_r50_01.jpg

a bit more info for those who sort of wonderSwaybars: They reduce body roll and provide a means for adjusting the car's handling by redistributing cornering loads between the front and rear wheels. The mounting points for the swaybars are a weak point when using aftermarket bars. Make sure you get reinforcements. It's recommended to upgrade the shocks and springs before you do swaybars. Swaybars alone cause too much stress on the front mounting points and I've heard stories of them braking! Turner Motorsport offers reinforcements for the front.


Shocks: A shock is basically a timing device. It times how long the suspension takes to react to the input or to dissipate the energy. They determine how long it takes for weight to transfer in a corner. My cars shocks are probably too old, but when I'm in a corner with uneven pavement, the suspension does not react quick enough and it throws off the balance of the car. The front suspension becomes unloaded and you now have very little control of the car (since the front wheels steer the car). Shocks should help a little here, but it's mainly a RWD thing.


Springs: Springs carry the vehicle load and establishes how much the suspension will travel for a given input. Lowering the center of gravity, about 1", will help a lot. Never do springs without upgrading shocks. The stock shocks are not valved to keep up with higher spring rates. It will work for a while, but you will probably experience bottoming out and eventually total failure of the shocks.

More than the engine distinguishes the M3 from the 3-series cars. For one, the M3 rides on its own unique suspension. The basic design and layout are shared with the 323 and 330, but nearly every component -- including the hubs and spindles -- was changed, modified, or strengthened for crisper handling and more driver feedback. The front track was increased 1.5 inches and the rear by 1.8 inches to accommodate big 225/45ZR-18 front tires and 255/40ZR-18 rears. In addition, a 0.1-inch-thick aluminum stiffening plate is bolted to the bottom of the front frame rails, and the steering rack uses a turning ratio that is seven percent quicker than the base car's.



and more

The M3’s suspension is about the most sophisticated to be found in a production sedan with performance aspirations, considering its front suspension is a lowly McPherson strut design. Years of fine tuning have yielded a degree of handling and cornering (nearly 1g) that is very impressive. Helping out in this regard are the excellent 17-inch Michelin Pilot tires, 245/45 in the back and 225/45 up front.

and more

M calibrated 4-wheel independent performance geometry suspension
Dynamic Stability Control with M sports tuning
M Double spoke 18" alloy wheels
High Performance tires
Tire pressure monitoring

g20 link
sr20 suspension link (http://www.se-r.net/suspension/)

Originally posted by ales


IMO, RWD is not an advantage. It depends on one's preferences. An RWD hasn't won in BTCC in a long time (actually, I don't know if it ever happened but I stand to be corrected). And in German STC a few years back BMW did win, but it was a very narrow victory from the Pug 406.

My own preference is FWD (point the front wheels approximately in the direction you need to go and let the back end sort itself out - a btcc commentator once said something to that effect after a great recovery from some driver). So basically the point of this all is that in good hands FWD can be as good as RWD.


Cas, sorry, I don't know the answer to your question, but I sure hope someone does.

Geo once said that the M3 chassis is superior to ours. Geo, in which way? Oh and could you compare the suspension of the P10 and your Porsche?

Alex
Well the one thing RWD does do is even out the weight distribution. One of the big reasons the Corvette Z06 can pull 1.0+g's right out of the box is it's nearly perfect 51/49 (front/rear) weight split. The Miata and MR2 can pull these kind of acceleration numbers without much modification. I think the Miata does 0.94g stock. It is rare to see many FWD cars that can do this.

Originally posted by Dshaft96

Well the one thing RWD does do is even out the weight distribution. One of the big reasons the Corvette Z06 can pull 1.0+g's right out of the box is it's nearly perfect 51/49 (front/rear) weight split. The Miata and MR2 can pull these kind of acceleration numbers without much modification. I think the Miata does 0.94g stock. It is rare to see many FWD cars that can do this.

Yes, that's true, but I personally find RWD much more unstable. At the same time it's easier (should I say "possible"? :)) to get it back under control. Also a due to the fact that you have to provide drive to the rear wheels you somewhat limit the options for the rear suspension. It's a gain in one respect and a loss in another. That's why I presented my post as a matter of personal preference, not universal truth.

Originally posted by cas8_1999
g20 link
sr20 suspension link (http://www.se-r.net/suspension/)
Thanks cas8_1999, I couldn't find the page where all that info was on.
As for making the G20 handle as well or better than the M3/M5, the question isn't really can it be done, but for how much $:confused: :confused: .

Originally posted by ales


Yes, that's true, but I personally find RWD much more unstable. At the same time it's easier (should I say "possible"? :)) to get it back under control. Also a due to the fact that you have to provide drive to the rear wheels you somewhat limit the options for the rear suspension. It's a gain in one respect and a loss in another. That's why I presented my post as a matter of personal preference, not universal truth.

I agree that RWD is much more unstable. I was just saying for raw cornering ability RWD probably has the advantage.

so for us to handle like them or better this is pretty much what it would take?????????
link (http://209.151.81.10/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4008)

Well I give props to BMW, cuz as mentioned earlier, they win and win and win, and if I'm not mistaken, they've always used just MacPherson struts. Unlike Japanese cars, which have all this double-wishbone multi-link stuff, BMW is just so good at tuning that they can outhandle many other cars, simply on this tried-and-true design. If you look at a G20 suspension, it looks horrendously complicated compared to BMW's basic design.

Also, most BMWs are extremely well balanced, almost 50/50. Note: generally: FF cars: 65/35, FR: 55/45, RR: 35/65, and 4WD: 60/40. Their engines and transmissions are set far back, there is little front overhang, and the batteries are in the back.

BMW = tough competition.
Infiniti G35 = meets and exceeds the challenge. Sorry, the G20 was out of this league.

you see the link i posted in the last post do you think drifter that it matches up and would put a g in the battle?
casual

Well, you've gotta remember that it really all depends on the driver. But if we speculate that they're all equal drivers and such, and know how to work their cars well....

The BMWs still outpower the G20s. Yeah, I love SR20s too, but a BMW M motor is still a formidable opponent. Even stock-for-stock, a G20 could never hang with a BMW, so just imagine if they're both fully built up and such? I still think the BMW can be modded above what the G20 can do (maybe not engine-wise, but the BMW still has a better platform to begin with.)

I still kinda lean towards a BMW outperforming a G20. BMW > G20, but not all BMW > Nissan. ;) I'm sure a GT-R would KILL a BMW Z8.

what i meant by in my last question was not about bmw vs g20 but what i meant was suspension wise in that llink i posted it was talking about race suspensions available for the g20 going for about 1500 a corner and so on iand i was wondering if one of those setups would put the g20 in competition with the bmw suspension wich is so talked about.. not as far as overall car no way would i compaare a g20 to m3 or m5 just was wondering about that suspension in the link..
thank you
casual

You're trying to compare apples and oranges. It's a full out trick reace setup on a G20 vs a stock M series suspension? That of course would be in favor of the trick G20 setup. However, there is just as much of that stuff for BMW's too, if they were to spend 1500 a corner on a setup it'd be just as good if not better than a G20's setup. When you start spending that much money on just the springs and dampers it's starts to even everything out. Look at the Speed Channel Touring Car Series. Some cars are more modded than others, but all are about the same speed. You're talking about this sorta competition now... it comes down to money.

thanks to you all for the responses..
casual