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Discussion Starter #43
krookednose7 said:
P.S. lets keep this a friendly argument please
Amen! That's what I intended with this post, and I'm glad it's stayed that way. ;)

It's important to me to see if others believe as I do that the gov't should not interfere with the supply & demand for products OR labor (i.e. if there is a shortage of workers in any particular field, the pay there will inflate until equilibrium is reached. As the pay in that field goes up, there will be demand for people who've been trained for it, and we won't need gov't artificially moving money & buying votes).

This forum is awesome! .... So many well-informed people from diverse backgrounds who can hash out topics in a civil manner.
 

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(i.e. if there is a shortage of workers in any particular field, the pay there will inflate until equilibrium is reached. As the pay in that field goes up, there will be demand for people who've been trained for it, and we won't need gov't artificially moving money & buying votes).
Oh, so you have had an economics class! It was fun arguing! No hard feelings!
 

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Although this thread is about taxes being subsidized for college education I see a few posts where some of you complain about taxes in general. You should feel lucky to pay the taxes we pay here, although not the very best, the U.S does not charge a minimum tax (If you don't work, you don't pay taxes) Also the maximum tax rate allowed is about 35% which is in some cases much lower than other governments around the world. Most of Scandinavian countries pay upwards of 50% as well as Israel, France, China, etc. So the next time that you complain about paying Uncle Sam just realize that someone else in another country is paying more of their paycheck to taxes than you are.

Of course I think the tax brackets may be a little screwed up (the super rich should get charged more)

Amen to the guy who said we live in a republic, democracy my ass.

BTW Don you make the most thought provoking threads. Very entertaining.
 

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DonSwier said:
It's important to me to see if others believe as I do that the gov't should not interfere with the supply & demand for products OR labor (i.e. if there is a shortage of workers in any particular field, the pay there will inflate until equilibrium is reached. As the pay in that field goes up, there will be demand for people who've been trained for it, and we won't need gov't artificially moving money & buying votes).
Problem is that it doesnt work that way. Without government controlls on things we have the stock market bottoming out, we have banks closing with all your money (otherwise insured by the gov), we have gready company owners working children, a 14 hour day, and we have brokers jumping out of buildings. I fully support free/open trade, but it needs to meet in equilibrium with government controlls and regulations.
 

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G20Turbo said:
Although this thread is about taxes being subsidized for college education I see a few posts where some of you complain about taxes in general. You should feel lucky to pay the taxes we pay here, although not the very best, the U.S does not charge a minimum tax (If you don't work, you don't pay taxes) Also the maximum tax rate allowed is about 35% which is in some cases much lower than other governments around the world. Most of Scandinavian countries pay upwards of 50% as well as Israel, France, China, etc. So the next time that you complain about paying Uncle Sam just realize that someone else in another country is paying more of their paycheck to taxes than you are.

Of course I think the tax brackets may be a little screwed up (the super rich should get charged more)

Amen to the guy who said we live in a republic, democracy my ass.
Good point about the other countrys.

I totally agree. When does it become pointless to be a producer? They take from the producers and give to those who dont produce for the most part.

Thats me that said that. :D
 

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A number of states (Nevada for one) have taken their tobacco settlement money and used it to subsidize higher education. That way the folks dumb enough to smoke get to pay for college for those who might otherwise not afford it. How about that, BTW- I think that anyone who smokes should pay for any and all health care costs associated with their deteriorating health as they get older. Why should us non-smokers pay THAT tax bill?? At least taxes for higher education are a positive thing to make things better for all of us.
 

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lysander said:
BTW- I think that anyone who smokes should pay for any and all health care costs associated with their deteriorating health as they get older. Why should us non-smokers pay THAT tax bill??
You can't just single out one type of tax they should get rid of.
"THAT Tax bill" you are refereing to is Medicare and Medicade. Two VERY important "public goods", IMHO. YOu can't just say, "well you dont qualify for this national health care program because we don't like your lifestyle".

Nicotine is a very addictive drug - and not all people who start are able to stop. And not all people who smoke started on purpose.

For exampe:

Second hand smoke - it is possible to get addicted to cigarettes via second hand smoke.

Besides that - do you know how good cigars are? MMMMMMMMMM

I smoke ( cigars ), and I pay taxes. If I catch enphazema, why shouldn't I get help?

Do you drive? If so, then you are putting yourself in danger!
--------If you drive - then you must pay for insurance. Taxes are the same thing. ----------YOu pay them incase you ever need to use them.

In all reality - driving is more dangerous than smoking. Yet you put yourself in danger every day. How is smoking any different than that. IF someone gets in a car crash because of their own stupidity, why should our tax dollars go to fixing the damage they have done. Answer: BEcause they simply must. We, as a society, must stop being so greedy! IF we don't reach out to help our fellow Americans, who will?

I understand that people who live comfortably don't like giving away their money - neither do poor people. If you're wealthy, then good for you! But it is OUR responsability to reach out a helping hand. Remember, your ancestors (unless you're american indian) were imagrants here who needed government handouts to get things sstarted (free land in the west). So, regardless of what your financial possition is now, youw ouldn't be were you are if taxes weren't around.


The biggest point is: IF our taxes didn't go to help them - the taxes WOULD NOT go down! They would just go somewhere else. So who gives a fuck what they go towards. either way, it's not your money.


Note to lysander: Lol - i'm not trying to single your post out. Sorry if it seems that way. You make a good point!
 

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My point is that the question of using tax money to subsidize education is complex, but like many "social goods" it is generally a wise thing in which to invest tax money. Like SS, like public health, roads, etc. I agree with everything you say. To say that tax money should not be used for college is simplistic and not in the interest of the public good. I use the smoking thing as an example of overly simplistic thinking (although one of my personal opinions). That's like saying that suicide should be allowed, but anyone who does so should be required to clean up after themselves. BTW, be interesting to see actual stats if more people die from smoking related illnesses or in traffic accidents.

As I said above, I think most reputable economists and planners see education as an investment in the future for all of us. It also occurs to me that the funding structure of public college education is not so simple. There may be taxes, but the cost is also covered by endowments, tuition, special interests groups, businesses, industry, etc. I'd bet most state college programs are actually not that dependent on tax dollars.
 

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Actually, reading the heading of the thread again, you could ask the question if parents should help pay for their kids to go to college. You can make a damn good argument that kids who pay for it on their own are gonna appreciate it more and have a much clearer idea of what their educational goals/needs are.

USA is actually unusual in that our kids typically to go to college to transition away from home. I know Canadian kids are much more practicle- they go to college because they want some specific course or program, have a goal in mind. I'll have two kids in college next fall, and what college they're picking has much more to do with the cachet than the coursework. US kids tend to go to college for all the wrong reasons.
 

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Getting a college degree shows commitment and employers know that. I’m sorry to say that it's easy to get a JOB, a CAREER however, is something else that takes work to obtain.

Listen people, I think you are all missing the point also that you don't just go to college to get a good job, you go to get an education. What's wrong with making yourself smarter just to get smarter and help make decisions in life. It's also about the experience. Common guys, don't drop out because you don't see the point....

The fact is, you are just coping out because it's too hard for you and you can't hang,,,,I know because I’ve been there and I’ve dropped out. I also went back and got my degree and you know what, I now have a CAREER making good money and don't have to worry about trying to find a job when my JOB goes under.

College is about making you a better person to function in our society. I’m not saying you can't become a millionaire without college, or that you are dumb because you dropped out, I’m just saying that it says something about the persons character who can start and finish something as challenging as college can be.
 

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It occurs to me that pro sports is a good example here. More and more, pro athletes are focused on career, and college is either bypassed or only a brief "way station" to the big bucks. I suppose you can jump right in at 18-20, forget college, make the big bucks, but you are missing something important as noted in the last post. I give a lot of credit to those pro athletes that stick it out and get the degrees. Seems sad when they call the roster for pro football and some kids only get listed for their high schools.
 

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^^^I think a marriage, raising a family and maintaining a career is more challenging as well as rewarding then college any day.
 

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Simply put knowledge is power... Its a very famous qoute and its been said many times and for hundreds of years. When Greenspan was the head of the federal reserve he specifically stated that over and over again when discussing about the future of the American public. He states that with knowledge comes wealth. You can define wealth in many ways in that situation. Anyways, Greenspan said that it was important for the American people to continue with education if the economy was to continue growing and to sustain itself. We all know how smart those guys at the fed are, its not like they just got up one day and said "oh I think the american people should be educated" They study models and scenarios and alot of "what if's" in these types of situations. To sum it all up in other words, the reason we need the American public to become educated is because of global competition, among others. Jobs and your career are being outsourced to countries that can do the task a hell of alot cheaper. Pretty soon, jobs are going to get replaced by other nationals or even machines (think ATM, bye bye bank tellers) This is why if the American people want to continue living the good life, we must have the best jobs, the smartest people (Bio-tech, Technology, Finance, Medical, etc)
 

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lysander said:
My point is that the question of using tax money to subsidize education is complex, but like many "social goods" it is generally a wise thing in which to invest tax money. Like SS, like public health, roads, etc. I agree with everything you say. To say that tax money should not be used for college is simplistic and not in the interest of the public good. I use the smoking thing as an example of overly simplistic thinking (although one of my personal opinions). That's like saying that suicide should be allowed, but anyone who does so should be required to clean up after themselves. BTW, be interesting to see actual stats if more people die from smoking related illnesses or in traffic accidents.

As I said above, I think most reputable economists and planners see education as an investment in the future for all of us. It also occurs to me that the funding structure of public college education is not so simple. There may be taxes, but the cost is also covered by endowments, tuition, special interests groups, businesses, industry, etc. I'd bet most state college programs are actually not that dependent on tax dollars.

* I think I may have misunderstood your initial post - lol. *
--I just read the tax part (tobacco) and responsded to that
--- I'm ignorant ;)

Wallah!



Numbers aren't important - the example still applies :)



There are 400,000 tobacco related deaths each year. (World Wide)

lysander said:
USA is actually unusual in that our kids typically to go to college to transition away from home. I know Canadian kids are much more practicle- they go to college because they want some specific course or program, have a goal in mind. I'll have two kids in college next fall, and what college they're picking has much more to do with the cachet than the coursework. US kids tend to go to college for all the wrong reasons.
+1 (Although, i'm writing this from my dorm room - lol)
 

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G20Turbo said:
Simply put knowledge is power... Its a very famous qoute and its been said many times and for hundreds of years. When Greenspan was the head of the federal reserve he specifically stated that over and over again when discussing about the future of the American public. He states that with knowledge comes wealth. You can define wealth in many ways in that situation. Anyways, Greenspan said that it was important for the American people to continue with education if the economy was to continue growing and to sustain itself. We all know how smart those guys at the fed are, its not like they just got up one day and said "oh I think the american people should be educated" They study models and scenarios and alot of "what if's" in these types of situations. To sum it all up in other words, the reason we need the American public to become educated is because of global competition, among others. Jobs and your career are being outsourced to countries that can do the task a hell of alot cheaper. Pretty soon, jobs are going to get replaced by other nationals or even machines (think ATM, bye bye bank tellers) This is why if the American people want to continue living the good life, we must have the best jobs, the smartest people (Bio-tech, Technology, Finance, Medical, etc)
Basically following the rule set out by the endogenous growth theory...
 

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lysander said:
Seems sad when they call the roster for pro football and some kids only get listed for their high schools.
Off topic, but oh well

When a NFL player names his highschool, rather than a college its because they dislike the college they attended, and choose to boycot them. Very very few make it to the NFL without playing college ball.
 

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davew7 said:
^^^I think a marriage, raising a family and maintaining a career is more challenging as well as rewarding then college any day.
in no way did i put anything like that down, i simply stated that (as you can see) an employer will look at a college education as good, no matter what anybody says. Lots of things in life are challenging, you cant argue against college by saying that it's more important to raise a family. I think the fact that a person with a college degree makes more money would support the fact that they would be better equiped to provide for thier family. I had my first kid at 21 before i was ready for a family and before i had finished college. It was very tough for a few years until i finally got established. We were living in an apartment and didn't own anything. Now we can provide food for four kids, a house, and at least not go hungry. The fact that someone has a career means they most likely went to college (although i know it's not impossible to get a good career without an education, it def helps). your also missing the point of self improvement and improvement as a society. How are you going to tell your kids to go to college if you yourself did not? If you don't think it makes a difference, just do some research on college educated pay levels compared to those who don't have a college education.
http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa072602a.htm
 
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